Interpunkt - a new no nonsense wine brand with ecological values.

Andrew Ingham has had an interesting career – he started working in his youth in plumbing and then spent years building markets for beer companies before becoming an alcohol buyer for large grocery chains and hospitality companies around the world.

Recently, his conscience weighed on him and he decided to roll up his sleeves – reducing the wine industry’s massive carbon footprint became his goal and a new type of wine company was born called Interpunkt.

Interpunkt Wines makes simple wines with an easy taste profile packaged in eco-sensitive, recyclable and biodegradable packaging in the shape of a conventional bottle and the company is based in Toronto at StartWell.

In a rush? Here are some highlights from this conversation

  • Wine and entrepreneurship with a humorous anecdote. (0:00)
  • Leaving school early, working for family business, and traveling around the world. (2:43)
  • Traveling, work ethic, and career growth. (6:57)
  • Creativity and individuality in a corporate environment. (11:00)
  • Work experiences and career choices. (15:00)
  • Buying beer for a global retailer. (18:27)
  • Business strategies and technology use in retail. (22:22)
  • Brand management and marketing strategies. (25:30)
  • Wine buying and distribution in Australia. (29:31)
  • Wine industry career and turnaround strategies. (32:16)
  • Work experience in Hong Kong during protests and COVID-19 pandemic. (40:45)
  • Wine industry and helicopter experience. (44:16)
  • Wine production and sustainability. (48:19)
  • Sustainability in the wine industry. (52:11)
  • Sustainable packaging for wine bottles. (55:02)
  • Wine sustainability and branding. (58:28)
  • A winery's community work in South Africa. (1:02:17)
  • B Corp status and sustainability in the alcohol industry. (1:05:38)
  • Wine production and distribution. (1:08:16)
  • Wine production and distribution. (1:11:17)

Spend time with this conversation - here's the full transcript

Andrew Ingham 0:00
So I remember I was in New Zealand and I sent this hotel, and I got an email from a winery that I knew a little bit and they said, Hey, we heard you in New Zealand, because we'd really love it if you came to our winery. And so I look at where it is. It's like a five hour trip there and back and I said to him, look at it, there's just no way that I can spend a full day just come to see you. If you want to come down to where I am, and show me the wines then that's okay, but I definitely can't come to the winery. So they said what if we provide a helicopter would you call my helicopter? Okay, I'll definitely do that. And it's a really stupid story really, but I was having breakfast in the in this really nice hotel. I was trying to this couple from Australia. And so I actually live in Melbourne. And the waitress comes obviously the whole mastering your helicopter will be here if this couple was like, What is this guy? Back up my beat? Yeah, exactly. And then you hear it come to landed on the garden in front of them. And then took my case one damaged bag. Yeah, right. Wow. Absolutely. Actually, plants. I did not feel it remotely like this was a great experience when it was happening. Yeah.

Qasim Virjee 1:07
Founded in 2017. Start well, is Toronto's independent hub for innovators to collaborate. Our podcasts relate perspectives from the world's most diverse urban population to reflect unique insights into global business, media, and culture. Welcome to the studio. Andrew,

Andrew Ingham 1:30
thanks so much.

Qasim Virjee 1:31
It's a pleasure to have you for the 55th episode of the StartUp podcast

Andrew Ingham 1:35
almost my age, you know.

Qasim Virjee 1:39
Try to keep up for you, you know. And for this one, I'm actually really excited. Right studio with you because I see you all the time. Yeah, we chat. We banter we do we talk at the espresso bar. Definitely. And, and rather than coffee. We're talking about wine today, which is one of my favorite topics. But I don't think I've done an episode about wine for this series. So okay, it should be quite fun. Excellent. And you were saying before you came in, that this is your first time looking at even the setup. All right,

Andrew Ingham 2:09
honestly, I have not been in here before. I'm amazed. It's incredible. I serious. It's a serious bit of kit you've got here. Yeah, yeah,

Qasim Virjee 2:16
we're pretty professional. Yeah,

Andrew Ingham 2:17
I can I can see that now.

Qasim Virjee 2:22
So Andrew, let's talk. Let's go back, like to the beginnings of your supermarket adventures. Before we kind of like paint this picture of the bottle that is here on the table and the company that that it represents. Okay. Where did your career begin? According to you? Yeah. So are what did you What did you do for money? What do you do for your first pound?

Andrew Ingham 2:49
I had a paper around when I was about 14. And I hated it. Right? You know, who wants to deliver papers? You know, it was in Manchester in the UK, it pretty much rains every day in Chester. And it was a bit of a grim experience. But what I realized when I was doing that job is that there was a lot of kids that were under 14 that wanted to do it but weren't allowed because of the, you know, the employment laws around child children working. So I ended up with five paper rounds and five people under the age of 14, which I then subcontracted the paper around. So

Qasim Virjee 3:22
you're like the Uber Delivery person? Yeah, I

Andrew Ingham 3:24
just don't. Yeah, exactly. I use it all out. Myself. Exactly. So I was my first lb was, you know, probably some kind of child exploitation. I was also I was yes, I was. That was the first that entrepreneurial? Yeah, so I think so that was the first and sort of last time I was an entrepreneur. And my first actual job I worked for what now is Anheuser Busch. Okay, so when my when I first went into the sort of workforce, that was my first ever role, this

Qasim Virjee 3:53
was pre or post University, or so I

Andrew Ingham 3:56
didn't go to university did not No, I did not I left school early. So I left school before I was supposed to. So a long story for a total separate pot. What

Qasim Virjee 4:03
like what form?

Andrew Ingham 4:05
I was 15 When I left school 15 I was 15. Yeah. It was it was by sort of mutual consent as UN the headmaster me and had us had a good chat. And we came to the agreement that perhaps it was best for me not to be the imprint

Qasim Virjee 4:21
of a boot was left on your buttocks. Yeah, kind of. Yeah.

Andrew Ingham 4:25
Both for both of us, I think. So. So I left school and I ended up working for my dad, he was a plumber. So I just went to work in the family business, which, you know, no disrespect to him. He's brilliant. absolutely hated it.

Qasim Virjee 4:39
But what were the worst things like I'm sure it was a trying time, but like, you know, your teenage angst. Yeah. Dad

Andrew Ingham 4:49
wants to be abandoned and I wanted to make art. I really didn't want to be you know, fitting radiators. And, you know, he was he was great if he really put up with me like, you know, I guess he's got no choice, right but it was So, it was a, it was a time of realizing that, you know, I definitely messed up school. So that was a bit grim. And I was in this plumbing business that I didn't really want to be in. Yeah. And you know, people want heating fitted in the summer, and you know, all that kind of stuff. So you crawling around in people's lofts or onto the floor fitting pipes is absolutely horrendous. So I had an agreement with him that I would I would go through some kind of apprenticeship. Finish it. Yeah. And then he would let me go off and do whatever I wanted to do. And so I did that. And I went off traveling, so I traveled for maybe two and a half years, backpacking, I can follow around Europe, all around the world. I went, I went all around the world. So

Qasim Virjee 5:37
how did you dip at that age? Like, how did you think about where you wanted to go?

Andrew Ingham 5:42
I wanted to go to places that I knew people or not, that I in my sort of circle had not been to. So I went to the Philippines, and you know, all kind of stuff. And there was when I got there, I realize, oh, it's only people from our islands that aren't here. Everybody else's, you know, it's a well trodden path. But they had a great had a great time, I worked my way round, or, or through sort of Asia and Australia, and around the other side, obviously, this way, Canada and the US and down into Central America, South America, you know, all through all through that, and was away for about two and a half years in terms of, and so I consider that my education.

Qasim Virjee 6:19
Wow. That's so fascinating. Because at that point, your contemporaries of your age are probably just going into university if they were Yeah, they were. They were all they were like, 1819. Back from around the world. Exactly. That's

Andrew Ingham 6:32
right. They were all when I came back and got into the workforce with and as a bush, you're right, they were all off to university or, you know, being sensible. And I was a totally changed person. You know, I

Qasim Virjee 6:45
went, as you know, your eyes must have been like this. I

Andrew Ingham 6:48
went with a serious attitude problem and came back and changed, man, I was saying amazing. Yeah, it was incredible. I would not change it for the world. I was pretty, pretty tough. But, you know, just I just don't want to stop. I just kept on going. And there's loads of times I thought maybe something at home, just have a word of myself and say no, just just go to the next place.

Qasim Virjee 7:03
Home was the road a little bit later. Yeah, it was I look

Andrew Ingham 7:07
back on it now pops with a little bit of rose tinted glasses. And, you know, I remember I could only afford to eat fruitcake, because it had the most amount of calories in it. You know, that kind of stuff. But along

Qasim Virjee 7:18
the way you mean on the road? Yeah, along the way. So you got a little bit of money from your dad to set you off? Yeah,

Andrew Ingham 7:22
a little bit to get going into from the salary that he paid me which was, I remember is like 27 pounds a week it was you know, he wasn't really much but enough for a one way ticket somewhere and, and a bit of pocket money. And I just went and started working as soon as I arrived anywhere, the first thing I did was look for a job. Amazing. And I wasn't I wasn't on the beach, enjoying myself. So you're traveling,

Qasim Virjee 7:41
working, earning your way clicks. And then what was the point when you came back and then got the job. So a

Andrew Ingham 7:47
couple of couple of things happened. I was in the middle of the outback of Australia. And I was in this sort of youth hostel. And that this, this guy comes and sits at a table and you know, we're having we're having dinner, and he had he had a boiled potato. That was it, right? It's just gonna boil potato when he eats it. And then he's really positive. Everything's great. You just have a potato. And he says, yeah, that's all I eat. I was like, yeah, oh, my God.

Qasim Virjee 8:12
And he was not Irish. No, no.

Andrew Ingham 8:16
It was just a manual, you know, down the road. And he'd been doing it for like, 10 years, eating eating potato just just on the road. And he wanted to be on the road as much as he could set when his expenses were absolute bare minimum, which meant he just ate a potato for his dinner. That was very

Qasim Virjee 8:32
cool. Yeah, it was like me with my lunch earlier. eating potato chips.

Andrew Ingham 8:35
Exactly. I mean, I should probably just eat potatoes. But anyway. So yeah, I just saw this guy. And I was like, oh my god, I think I might be turning into you. And that was like

Qasim Virjee 8:45
another wake up call. Yeah, a little bit. Like, sometimes you get realized, yeah, who wants to be potato man when they're an older gentleman?

Andrew Ingham 8:51
Not me. Not anymore.

Qasim Virjee 8:54
So, AB Yeah, so what was their job? Yeah,

Andrew Ingham 8:57
so I came back to the UK or went back to the UK and got a job at Boddingtons brewery and Manchester. Lovely. Yeah, we were there. And it was owned by a different company briefly until they, they bought it and became part of the big AB InBev sort of empire that is now and I just I just sort of worked from from the start of the ladder, really, you know, I it was a sort of a sales role. I used to go and visit pubs and convince them Yeah, extremely, extremely regional, just in Manchester. And, and sort of there and what I realized was out this from somewhere, I actually said, If you'd asked me at any point in my life up to them, you know, where would this come from? I would not have known but I had this really strong work ethic. You know, I could really connect with people quite easily because, you know, when you're when you're backpacking, you have to make friends with people immediately, like they your friends straightaway. And so I was just really able to talk to people, very casually, you know, no, non threatening, and also at the same time, get them to buy Boddingtons,

Qasim Virjee 9:57
you know, so I just wore those chat It's over Boddingtons, sometimes

Andrew Ingham 10:01
over a few pints of Boddingtons. That was absolutely it was good old days, it was the nitrile product. Yeah, exactly. So I really enjoyed it like it was great. The successful they gave me a car and all that kind of stuff, you know. So it was it was it

Qasim Virjee 10:15
painted with the logo of the day wasn't it wasn't Boddington might

Andrew Ingham 10:19
not have been a deal breaker. They used to have a, if you were the top performing salesperson in the year, then you could use their private reg for the car, which was better one, which I thankfully, never had it.

Qasim Virjee 10:34
Probably get pulled over a lot by the cops. Yeah, right.

Andrew Ingham 10:36
Exactly. Yeah. And I would have had a booth full of beer as well. So yeah, so it was it was a, it was an interesting job. And I found that I was actually quite good at it. And you know, I could sort of definitely talk to people and sell Boddingtons and I just, I just kept on getting promoted, it just, it was became a bit of a sort of running joke really, that I would do a job for six months, it'd be broken, I'd fix it. Yeah, put it into a good position. And then they'd hand it somebody else and get me to go and fix the next thing. And just keep on doing that. And that is pretty much defined my career up to this point was fixing things and moving on. What do

Qasim Virjee 11:08
you think is the maybe cultural aspect of that kind of whoever the manager level was, at whatever organization you're with, you know, from the brewery onwards, that enabled that kind of like? Yeah, what was the culture that enable that promotion? today? I don't know if that exists? Yeah,

Andrew Ingham 11:29
no, you've actually hit on something really, really important to me that actually, that I didn't expect is there was one individual that changed my life out Boddingtons. Okay, this guy, his name's Keith Ellis, I, Keith. And he, he was my alarm manager at the time. And I had a pretty unique way of working and it's the 90s, right, everyone's walking around in suits and ties and all that sort of stuff. And I was definitely a

Qasim Virjee 11:52
jeans and T shirt, their mobile phones. Yeah,

Andrew Ingham 11:54
we all have the big Nokia phone, snake on it. And he he accepted my individuality. You know, I didn't want to be the guy in the suit. You know, I just wasn't really interested in that. And what and a lot, did

Qasim Virjee 12:08
you have a mustache? No, I didn't

Andrew Ingham 12:11
know, I still don't have to get a mustache going.

Qasim Virjee 12:14
You're either mustache guy or not a mustache guy.

Andrew Ingham 12:17
I was, I don't think I've ever been a mustache guy. As much as I would like to be. Yeah, he just let me sort of be an individual in a very corporate, you know, sort of stagnant environment really. And, you know, I wanted to have to be creative. That was important to me, I always would do art, you know, as a hobby on the side, and I wanted creativity in all aspects of my life that needs to be needs to be there. And so he really sort of, you know, empowered me to think that that was okay to be creative. And, you know, we, when we became part of Anheuser Busch, you've got these brands like Budweiser,

Qasim Virjee 12:52
Stella Artois, are a massive global

Andrew Ingham 12:55
brands huge, nobody supposed to mess with. Yeah. And and they'd let me they let me mess with them a little bit. You know, I

Qasim Virjee 13:01
would, what's an example? Yeah, well,

Andrew Ingham 13:02
I remember I decided that there was a group of customers that were kind of, you know, they weren't buying so much from from me or from and I was at Busch at the time is that these are pubs? Right? Right. But they would have been buying from a competitor. And so, you know, I would go and visit them, but they were like, well, you know, we buy more, whatever brand, you know, that we buy of yours. So I decided it wasn't really worth my time. Keep on going every every month having the same conversation that's going to his dog is you know, or whatever.

Qasim Virjee 13:28
Yeah, just to warm him up for conversation. So

Andrew Ingham 13:31
I started to design my own postcards, but using Anheuser Busch brands, okay. And I remember one that that may

Qasim Virjee 13:38
allow these people you didn't want to visit? Yeah,

Andrew Ingham 13:40
Love's not gonna visit you anymore. I'm gonna send you a postcard is a stamp is cheaper than me going right? And so I would design these postcards have them printed up right on them. Don't forget, don't forget me and all that kind of stuff, right. And I remember one was for Stella Artois. And it was basically just these big red lips. And it said, you know, some hot lips. I remember exactly what was some some a bit tongue in cheek. Yeah. And it really worked. They thought they were funny. And so what happened is they call me say, Hey, you should come next time. And then that slowly, but surely,

Qasim Virjee 14:10
they probably pass it around, maybe put it behind the bar and had it pinned on

Andrew Ingham 14:12
all these things, right? And so my boss was like, well, you're, you're really messing with these brands that they're not comfortable with, but nobody can deny the success.

Qasim Virjee 14:21
So it's like the difference between sales and marketing, you know? Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Andrew Ingham 14:26
Yeah, we're supposed to go and do you know, the steps of the call I have to go through the longer I wasn't supposed to send postcards. I drawn myself, you know, like, that wasn't really, that wasn't really part of the Budweiser brand, you know, criteria. So, but they realize it was working and so they adopted it for broader and particular thing. Yeah, they said, Okay, well, maybe we won't send hot lips but maybe we will send you know, some kind of postcards to customers that we have. We're forgetting about direct

Qasim Virjee 14:54
mail was you might have brought direct mail to AB

Andrew Ingham 14:58
Wow. didn't mean I'm really sorry. But it definitely worked. And so they they enabled me to make those kinds of choices and made me feel like I could make them right and make make bolder ones, you know.

Qasim Virjee 15:10
And so then from there like, How long were you in that position?

Andrew Ingham 15:14
I worked for them for nearly 10 years, and then I moved over to work for Heineken for a short while for a year. absolutely hated it. From start to finish. It was from day one to day 365, which I think

Qasim Virjee 15:25
is like the IBM of the beer world. Yeah. From what I understand like my friend Aleem Ladakh who used to who now this is a guy in Nairobi, who started a microbrewery. He was always his dream. It was his dad is a cordon bleu chef, one of those guys, when you sleep over at their house, you wake up in the morning and you get some amazing meal, you know. And so he was always instilled with the values of culinary expertise. Yeah. And so when he became a brewmaster, and started working the rounds, Heineken had him going, optimizing breweries across Africa, right. So he spent like, four years, five years, I don't know how long it was going and fixing, like, you can't brew Guinness in the Congo. I'm sorry.

Andrew Ingham 16:09
You can track like,

Qasim Virjee 16:10
why would you? So he gave up he threw in the towel, right after a number of years. And he said, I'm going to start a microbrewery. And it was a big political revolution because the brewery Kenya breweries limited and Kenya that made tusker which is the number one brand, you know, had government connections was the only brewery. That's right. It was the number two brewery ever. Yeah, in East Africa. Yeah. Or I guess in Kenya and yeah, but Heineken kind of, like, propelled him into wanting to change the picture. Yeah, no, it's interesting.

Andrew Ingham 16:44
Yeah, they really wanted me You know, I think my experience made me feel that I'd had enough of it, you know, because the first day I had to go to Amsterdam and you know, in the head office, and it was all very intense and formal, it felt like it was a step back to the 1960s Everyone's you know, again all in the suits and ties and I sat mustaches you probably actually maybe in Holland they might have homelessness and and I ended up you know, having this this cup of tea and it was in a Heineken branded cup and saucer with some, you know, some Heineken plate of sandwiches and, and that whole experience was really intense and I ended up having a nosebleed in the middle of this meeting. The way that they were operated aneurysm

Qasim Virjee 17:25
just Yes, just like

Andrew Ingham 17:28
I'm already day one. And and they did they really didn't like my you know, my creativity or you know, t shirt and jeans style. They, we just did not gel at all, it was a pretty grim

Qasim Virjee 17:40
How did that feel like, though as an employee, like you're now kind of like, oh my God, what did I felt like

Andrew Ingham 17:45
I made this huge mistake, because I spent 10 years, eight years and as a bushing. And then I you know, I'd love for the money. They promised me extra money. Great. They promised me a payment to leave great. You know, I think okay, this is this is this is what I what I should want, right? This is what everyone aspires to. That

Qasim Virjee 18:01
was the second thing that they promised you

Andrew Ingham 18:02
a BMW.

Qasim Virjee 18:03
I thought you said that. A BMW BMW. I

Andrew Ingham 18:07
thought, wow, this is amazing. Right? still

Qasim Virjee 18:08
happen. Hey, lad. Yeah, this is where you want to be. Yeah, we'll give you the keys to a brand new BM. Exactly.

Andrew Ingham 18:15
It was that was kind of it. And you know, I was like, of course, I'll take it. When I saw him, you know, great him for it really? And, honestly, just a year of hell for me. It was absolutely awful. So hated every second of it. Yeah. And I think they I think them to be fair. So you know, similar to my end of my school career, we had a similar conversation right?

Qasim Virjee 18:36
Out you went pretty

Andrew Ingham 18:38
much happily. greener pastures. Yeah. So I had been working with this with a company called at the time, and are still called Metro in Germany. So they're a huge big European retailer. They don't like it's a bit like a grocer like Costco. Okay. Exactly. That's right. And I've been working with them and supplying them and all that kind of stuff. And I could see that what they were doing was didn't make any sense. It didn't make any sense to me. So I was trying to speak to the buyer and get them to, you know, why don't you try and this idea and try that idea. And she was like, you don't know what you're talking about? You know, you don't know that my pressure is absolutely not. And so I just happened to catch the band director in the reception of the head office one day, and I just grabbed him and said, Hey, can I just have a word? You know, I don't want to tell tales out of school, you know, and I don't care really about about that, but you're doing it wrong. And actually, if you just put these four things in place, ImageNet, right. And he said, Okay, why don't you just come back tonight at half, seven. And I was like, Okay, what voice and I just want to talk to you and there's no one around. Oh, says okay, okay, sounds a bit sinister, but I'll go for it. Yeah. And so I turned up and he said, Okay, if you were the buyer, what would you do? So I just went into a full thing. He said, Okay, when can you start? Brilliant? Yeah, so I flipped that time. They were they were the world's fourth biggest retailer at the time.

Qasim Virjee 19:58
Yeah. German based you Mmm. But across the EU Metro, there's a well in Canada. Brand. It's nice to have those guys. I shouldn't say French we have a Quebec colaborate.

Andrew Ingham 20:11
Yes, that's true. Yeah, it's not those. They they've got places in China and Russia and all across Europe, France, Italy, Spain and UK. So I went to work for them is that

Qasim Virjee 20:21
China and Russia and people's heads is always kind of the same, right? Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, similar. Yeah. So I

Andrew Ingham 20:27
worked for them as a bear buyer. And, and it was my first, my first time on that side of the table. And I've always worked in a sales or marketing kind of roll. And then also on, I'm on the opposite side of the table. But I went into just completely, you know, open aside, I don't really know anything about being a buyer. There's

Qasim Virjee 20:45
a job, a single job dedicated to buying beer for this is global. So

Andrew Ingham 20:53
I bought beer for the UK, and I worked on own brand projects with our global bear business. Brilliant. Yeah.

Qasim Virjee 21:00
That must have been fascinating, because actually looking at the potentiality, of kind of commanding that you're

Andrew Ingham 21:06
buying power, exactly like the fourth biggest retailer in the world, right. So when you when you call Heineken, who we met in a good relationship, and say, hey, I want to talk to you about your business.

Qasim Virjee 21:17
They responded to take it seriously. A big purchase order. They're quite large. Yeah, quite serious. Wow. And also, of course, dealing with different like multi territory purchases, which actually considering the taste patterns of the customers, right?

Andrew Ingham 21:31
It was a little bit different. That's right.

Qasim Virjee 21:32
How was like, what was the data that you were working off amazing

Andrew Ingham 21:35
they they had, they really invested in that sort of stuff. And now in the early 2000s, yeah, would have been early 2000s. Probably mid 2000s, actually, just just make it wasn't forced. I think that they were, they really invested in it. I heard of that ahead of their time, compared to other supermarkets I've worked for, that's not quite as good as what Walmart do. I hear they're pretty excellent. But they everything was at my fingertips, I was very much as a buyer empowered to find insight and information, create a story or whatever, and then go and take some action. And that was all there, which was, which was brilliant, all customer data. And obviously, it's, you know, it's like a Costco. So it's like a membership or is a membership. So you see all the transaction data for everybody. You see it all. So you can see not only can you see like the demographics of the people, but what they're spending and what else they spend and, you know, had big, big, huge sort of computer created charts that had, you know, colored depending on certain metrics and size and shape. And you could What if I took this out of the range, what would happen and it would all move around, based on Wow, last five years data is pretty amazing. It is amazing. So it was I really enjoyed that side of it. Actually, that was

Qasim Virjee 22:48
the year that the first color BlackBerry came out. Oh, really? Yeah.

Andrew Ingham 22:53
I had a Blackberry in that job. I think 2005

Qasim Virjee 22:54
And to those guys, I know. I want to watch that movie. Yeah, I saw this movie. And apparently they're like breaking up the company. That was the other news this Oh, really? Yeah. But regardless, yes. Let's not bring up the ghosts of Canada's past. Our discussion is far more important. And interesting.

Andrew Ingham 23:16
Oh, no, I can

Qasim Virjee 23:19
missed that thing. Man. I missed the keys. I missed the stuff that easier. I missed the keys. Yeah. And that scroll is kind of fun. I had the 7100 which was like the first color one. Yeah. And then that's why I remember that. And I moved to New York in 2004. And that was one of my stipulations of this of this job. They weren't paying me much money. But I said you have to pay for my cellular phone. Right. And I want this top of the line phone. Yeah. And it almost I almost didn't get the job because they didn't want to spend the $1,000 on the phone. And I remember is a big issue. And then the finance director gave me the phone like she had gotten a T Mobile to get it herself really as she was very very careful with $1,000 today can you imagine if you tell anyone yeah right to be careful with $1,000 worth of them around.

Andrew Ingham 24:09
They don't care although we want to just bounce back and farm shell super

Qasim Virjee 24:13
tough that it was the first phone that had Google Maps on it which saved my ass being someone who had just moved to New York I don't think mine has Google Maps on it. No, that was the first year first product that happened it was very very interesting. Yeah. But we digress

Andrew Ingham 24:30
costs of course we do.

Qasim Virjee 24:34
Okay, so it's like to that unfortunate as five you are looking at all sorts of angles of the business that you didn't see earlier right? Yes on this kind of like alcohol distribution side Exactly.

Andrew Ingham 24:48
opened my eyes to the reality of retailing you know, when my boss at the time said, you know as German guys we don't add value. That's not our job. Our job is we buy a box we put a box on the shelf and we sell about eggs don't add value. I thought I was crazy, because I come from and as a butcher all about adding value to, to a product that if it's not in the packaging, you wouldn't really know one from another. Right? And so I was I found that fascinating that that was like, the lentil was

Qasim Virjee 25:16
different perception.

Andrew Ingham 25:17
Totally different. I absolutely love that. And I remember being in negotiations with, with suppliers who I've been in that situation, I've sat in that chair speaking to people like me, so I just had this sort of empathy. But then I also have this well, no one ever made it easy for me. So why should I make it easy for you? Yeah, you know, so that this, this dynamic was going on. And I remember, the, you know, I was totally open. So you teach me everything, I teach me everything. And they, they really helped me to be to be what I consider to be a good bearer at the time. And I remember, we were dealing with Heineken, and they got these, these two sort of German consultants to come and help me in the negotiation. And we were asking for, you know, a ridiculous amount of money, extra margin and all the usual sorts of stuff. And we said, we'll have a meeting with them, and we'll get them to present to us, but they must send the presentation the day before. Right. So this presentation was an email 50 slides long, it's all about that brand activations, and all the great stuff that consumers sort of care about, right? Yeah. And then the very last page was was the deal, how much money they were gonna give us? Like wiping? It was, yeah, it was a big, it was a big number. And so we sat in this big, huge room and big screen, and then we put the last slide up. And we said, Right, okay, thanks for coming. We really want to talk to you about the deal. And this guy, friend, Ken says, well, now does the whole presentation. What about the presentation? And I said, Well, we're going to talk about the deal. That's what we're here for, right? And the user, no, no, no, we need to talk about how we're going to get to this. And this German guy who said nothing in the meeting, and it's anything else after this. He just leans in, he says, irrelevant. And it was to me, it was like, ah, there's a way there's like a really efficient way to deal with this, right? I don't need to listen to all this stuff. I don't need to care about all this stuff. I just need to care about adding value to my customers, even though we don't value the values and the price of that. Sure. You know, so if you give me more money, I can make them cheaper, which makes it easier for the customer. Right? Yeah. And once that penny dropped, I was away. That's exciting. Yeah. It was good.

Qasim Virjee 27:16
So how many years did you have with that brand?

Andrew Ingham 27:18
So I worked for them for three years. And then I got approached by a supermarket chain in Australia. And this was part of, I got this reputation of being like the fixer, you know, like, I can, I can take something that's broken, and I can patch it all up, put it all good, and then pass it someone to run with it. Right. And so they contacted me and said, we'd like to come and be our beer buyer for a supermarket show in Australia. Pause

Qasim Virjee 27:42
question. At Metro, which was the German brand? Yes. What was the zero to hero story, though? You What did you fix?

Andrew Ingham 27:53
So it was just a declining customer base. It was they sold to professionals, and you know, some sort of retailers and individuals that were members. And it was just slowly declining, as you know, supermarket and bigger online was starting to poke its head around a little bit. You know, these guys have never invested in online at all, and can even buy anything online from them. And so it was just no one had really gone to the supply base and said, Right, first of all, these cost prices are not appropriate. Yeah. Second of all, because we've been failing, we've been chasing it a little bit. So 50% of the range, I would say when I started was there because they needed money. And they've done deals. The suppliers have said, well, if you list these products, we'll give you this money. And so we want the money. So we don't care about what's on the shelf interesting. And then also the customer see all this random stuff on the shelf like, well, we don't really want that. And then they're ramming more stuff in them can fit. So the availability of stuff they want is not very good. Yeah. So that makes them more if you can't even buy what I want. I'm even coming out.

Qasim Virjee 28:54
Does sound very 1970s. Yeah. And so you cleaned it all up. And you got a call.

Andrew Ingham 29:01
Yeah, I got a call from Kohl's in Australia. So I went to work for those guys. And I remember went there, you move there, I moved here. I moved to Melbourne. And I remember my first day I arrived, and I was asked to be the beer buyer and arrived and they say, Okay, we've sort of changed our mind a little bit. We don't want you to be the beer buyer anymore. And I was Oh god, I have worked in beer for like, you know, 15 years. I

Qasim Virjee 29:23
don't know how to use them.

Andrew Ingham 29:25
Exactly. Exactly. And they said we want you to be our wine buyer. And I was like oh my god, this is a disaster.

Qasim Virjee 29:31
Complete switch. Yeah. Did you drink wine at the time?

Andrew Ingham 29:33
I would have socially drank it. Did you have problems but did you have a low because I'd worked with Metro and there were all these like highly sort of sophisticated characters that had done all these going on these wine courses and very fancy kinda spoke a certain language that you know, that I didn't really care about. And so you know, I was sort of down and dirty with own brand beer. Really. I wasn't getting too excited about the latest release from Burgundy right? So I just said, Oh, this is this is ridiculous. I don't know anything about wine. And, and I know people have worked with wine buyers. And that's definitely not me. And their view was, hey, look, there's a whole team of people that now report to you that are like that. And we don't need one of those. We need someone that's got your background, your bare background, someone that cares about customers and cost, end to end distribution. Just get on with actually making sense of it. So I said, Okay, I'll give it a shot. And they, they said, Well, don't worry, we'll send you on all the wine courses and all that kind of stuff. So I did some of those, which is why this looks like this because I hated it from the start. And, and it was great. I actually actually really enjoyed it. Mount Melbourne is a beautiful city. You know,

Qasim Virjee 30:48
it's, I can imagine how amazing it would be to be there. Yeah, it

Andrew Ingham 30:52
was, it was incredible. I had friends that live there from my old backpacking days that I reconnected with and all just smoothly just glided into life in Melbourne. It was pretty nice. And, and the job whilst it was pretty challenging, you know, they had some serious demands. And also that was my first real supermarket. You know, like it was real customers that actually just choose to come in because they're doing their weekly family shop, not necessarily members that are buying for their corner shop or restaurant or whatever.

Qasim Virjee 31:20
And did they have differentiated retail product? Like where they're kind of the neighborhood High Street store? Yeah, they also the big store for the weekend buy?

Andrew Ingham 31:27
Yeah, they had that. Yeah, they had all that sort of stuff, lots of different clusters of customer types and demographics. And all across Australia, you know, out in the middle of nowhere and in the middle of the city and everywhere, and then have different banners depending on you know, the supermarket or the or the liquor store or the big box liquor store, the premium liquor store, all different sort of versions of it. So it was for for banners, is a billion dollars, US Aussie dollars of spending power that was responsible for team of 15 wine buyers are like kind of how much

Qasim Virjee 31:58
is a kangaroo buck. It wasn't very much. Like relative to Canadian dollars. You know, as

Andrew Ingham 32:06
far as I actually don't know. I have no idea. No, I remember it wasn't a billion Aussie dollars, which might be like, you know, 500,000 Canadian or a billion Canadian? Yeah.

Qasim Virjee 32:17
I'm sure it's quite a lot.

Andrew Ingham 32:18
It was it was pretty big. It was pretty big. But I enjoyed it. And apart from the courses and got to know the wine industry in Australia really well. And I went through a big turnaround with those guys. They were trying to transform what they were, what their offers and what they were doing. And actually, it was quite enjoyable. Yeah, it was fine. And then decided to come back to the UK some three years, almost three years in Australia got its way it was a five year project. But by three years, well, oddly enough of it. Came back to UK went to work for a supermarket chain in the UK.

Qasim Virjee 32:56
Morrison's. Morrison's. Okay. Yeah. And

Andrew Ingham 32:59
works on the wine team there. And that was, you know, sort of paint by numbers. Really, I sort of got the playbook now. And then you've got the the work that Metro had done with the turnaround that calls are done, run that into one idea. And that just became a playbook. Because like, oh, we just we do we do this today and this tomorrow and on Wednesday, and then keep on, you know,

Qasim Virjee 33:20
it's more like you're feeling yourself a consultant than perhaps Yes, I

Andrew Ingham 33:24
actually was, it was quite an interesting part of my career, really, because it was through that role at Morrisons. I was wondering, you know, do I do I really want to progress, you know, do I want to chase the next job, like everybody was doing, of course, and I wasn't really sure, you know, I definitely sort of had a bit of a wobble there as to whether I do I want to go and push myself to that next thing? Or am I just really happy working in this industry? Doing something that I can do turning it around, you know, and so I thought Morrison's Yes, I'll I'll continue in that vein. And so, it was, it was a good job. We won countless awards, lots of write ups in the news about the wine offer, Morrison's and how good it was. And remember the Guardian Ad written. There's one supermarket that doesn't rip customers off when it comes to wine and it's Morrison's Yeah, it's kind of makes you feel like it evens out, right? Yeah, exactly. So it was it was a good it was a good experience in terms of the the work that needed to be done and what we actually did, I did enjoy it. Same thing happened as what happened at Kohl's you got to year three and everything that we set out to do on day one was achieved literally everything like it was performing it was making money. It was a good range customers responding awards have been one further for the total offer for the wines traveling all over the world, you know, buying wines from pretty much everywhere. Like it was all good but it was it was all achieved and I had to decide, Okay, do I do I push for a promotion, do I? What is the promotion? What will that actually looked like and actually I did, I did talk about it. And they said, Yeah, you know, maybe you could could gone look after their cleaning category. And I'm thinking, I've worked in beer wines and spirits now for coming up to 20 years. Do I really want to now go and do household cleaning products aren't really sure for me. So I left those guys who went to work for one of the UK's biggest public companies saying manage that one offer run, run all that.

Qasim Virjee 35:24
So this is an amalgamated. And like, this is a company that has a bunch of pubs.

Andrew Ingham 35:28
Yeah, so they had, they had about 1400 pubs that were they owned, and they managed the 100. Yeah, about 1400 that they owned and managed, and had a manager in them. And we prescribed everything that they did the menu, the way they operated,

Qasim Virjee 35:45
everything. These are probably multi brand, because a lot of these Oh yeah,

Andrew Ingham 35:48
there's probably eight or nine different brands of pump from, you know, really entry level, great value kind of places, all the way up to super premium city centre, London neck, just behind Buckingham Palace, kind of kind of pubs, you know, and so forth. And then another maybe at least 1000, probably more that they owned, but they rented in a rented out to tenants, and they would they have to buy their products, but they could choose what they were. Yeah, yeah. So I managed all the wine for all that. And that was that was that was cool, too. You know, it was an interesting, different because it was no longer talking about customers. But talking about guests, it's kind of a different mindset. Right, you know, yeah. And they they've been through similar things, they're going through a turn around, the wine offer had been pretty much devalued to the what's the cheapest wine we could possibly buy, you know, and then they put it in, well, let's put it in a nicer bottle bit of a bit of a thicker glass, you know, nicer label, but still still bad wine. And, you know, customers see, see through that they go go to a pub and spend good money on a bottle of wine is rubbish. You know, you think well, so I worked really hard there to say to myself, but I worked hard to improve the quality. So if you actually, if you're a customer, and you decided to spend a little bit more, for whatever reason, you were rewarded by actually being better. So that was the big piece of work. But with those guys, it's

Qasim Virjee 37:06
interesting, though, because I would, I would always expect as a customer that when I go somewhere and I look at the list, I have a means of kind of negotiating or figuring out what I know, or what I would expect, you know, based off of kind of versatile and you know, terroir and house. Exactly. So it's interesting, because like in this bulk buying scenario where you're kind of commissioning almost OEM wine, yep. It throws that out of whack. So you kind of like customers guesstimating a little bit, right?

Andrew Ingham 37:38
Well, what happens is, you know, I spent a lot of time in pubs, some of my own choice and some of that, but at what I noticed when listening to customers ordering wine is they'd come and say, what's the cheapest wine you've got? I'll have that. Right. So that's the first thing. Second thing they say is Pinot Grigio. What's the how much is the bean out of the pile? Right? And not really much else. So trying to convince people to, you know, spend a little bit more and have something a bit more special as me.

Qasim Virjee 38:08
That said, so far, but I know exactly what you'd be. Exactly It isn't it. But

Andrew Ingham 38:12
they did things. It was just some really basic things like they had Pinot Grigio as their entry level wine. So their cheapest one was the one that everyone asked for. Yeah, so why don't we Why don't we instead of giving doing that, why don't we just put a very generic white wine. So entry level, that's good. As grateful for what it is, you know, it's good, good worth worth the money. But let's make the pedigrees do the second or third on the list and buy one that's better. So when the customer comes in, they're either going to be loyal to the price point, right? Here's one for you. Or two. Pinot Grigio is here. Yeah. Right. And what happened is, as soon as soon as we implemented the idea, what happened was customers who wants it been agreed to trade it up, and then said, Wow, this is this is actually great. But it's so

Qasim Virjee 38:54
UK to the EU. It's so funny. Maybe it's not just UK, but like, the

Qasim Virjee 38:59
idea that people by, you know, their taste is aligned with a specific varietal. Yeah. is kind of funny to me. Because, you know, I mean, it's understandably it's kind of like an uneducated palate. Right? Exactly.

Andrew Ingham 39:13
That which, by the way, is pretty much every cost because the

Qasim Virjee 39:17
variance within the varietals is ridiculous. So

Andrew Ingham 39:19
you know, this great, man, I'm gonna get technical. Yeah, I don't I really don't want to do that. But I will. The

Qasim Virjee 39:25
second no stuff and still value simplicity.

Andrew Ingham 39:29
Exactly. I think that's the key. There are certain grapes that lend themselves to a very narrow taste profile. Yeah, Pinot Grigio is 170. And Blanc is another Malbec isn't it? Right, these grapes. If you buy a Sauvignon Blanc from New Zealand, whatever the brand is, kind of very similar in style. Right, right. And so customers trust that because they don't really know about wine. They Don't Really Care About wine either. And so they know well, I bought that before and I liked it. And that's good enough for me. And there's too much of a risk to Don't go anywhere else because these are not cheap products right? And so certainly on blonde does really well Pinot Grigio does very well. And Malbec does really well, because of those reasons. Take a great black Chardonnay, you can mess with that as much as you like and has been messed with. You know, a Chardonnay from France is different than a Chardonnay from Australia is different than one that's been okayed all this kind of stuff happens. And so customers don't trust it. So never drink Chardonnay becomes becomes a thing. And customers lean towards the grape varietals that actually they trust. And I think that is both what is magic about the wine industry. And its biggest sort of hindrance really, is customers don't really care and they stick to what they know.

Qasim Virjee 40:41
And this kind of takes us towards your venture. That's right. Because after that stint with the pub company, yes, I

Andrew Ingham 40:49
went went for a supermarket chain in Hong Kong that had two markets all over Asia of southern China, Hong Kong, Cambodia, Vietnam, Singapore, amazing area, and I run their best wines and spirits bang team for a couple of years.

Qasim Virjee 41:04
Well, that's an hour haul left field thing, because it's probably a lot of local alcohols as well that people were interested.

Andrew Ingham 41:11
Yeah, there's exactly there was there was both snakes and vermin in it. There was not quite that but almost certainly with things in it. Yeah. But yeah, there was there was the Asian Asian beer wines and spirits. And then there was, you know, the stuff that was used to. So there's definitely two that two categories within that. Definitely a whole

Qasim Virjee 41:29
shelf of just things with like different types of oranges. Absolutely. 500 different oranges and each different bottle. Absolutely. need them all in this array.

Andrew Ingham 41:37
Yeah. And stuff that basically is paint stripper, you know? Yeah. Take one sip. And that's it. You're done for the day.

Qasim Virjee 41:42
Wow. Wow. Yeah. What an eye opener, though. Yeah.

Andrew Ingham 41:46
Well, it's pretty amazing. Because it really interesting in place at that time, because I arrived on the day of the there was a protest with a million people were on the streets. And when I arrived on that day in Hong Kong In Hong Kong, yeah. So I was going to my apartment that they lined up for me to stay out when I first got there. And I couldn't cross the road because there was a million people walking down the street, you know, literally protest. Yeah. And I remember the first night, the protest turned into, like a mini riot, really. And he got these these people out there. They were wearing yellow helmets and gas masks and body vests and the police were throwing tear gas and they were thrown back. And I was like in this huge skyscraper, looking out my window at basically a riot. And it was my first night and I was thinking, Okay, this is gonna be this might be interesting. This is what

Qasim Virjee 42:34
2018 or something? It was. Before the pandemic. Yeah,

Andrew Ingham 42:37
just it was just before the time yeah, like a year or 18 months before the pandemic? That's right. Recall this. Yeah. So it was, it was a big, big thing at the time, you know, with what was going on there. And I had people working for me, all local

Qasim Virjee 42:49
people. It was all timed around China's you know, taking control. That's

Andrew Ingham 42:53
right. Exactly. That's that's what was happening. They they had this, you know, One Country Two Systems policy for Hong Kong, and they were slowly winding that back. Yeah. And the local community were not really totally comfortable with it. And it was, you know, that's what caused it really. But it was pretty it was it was pretty bad. You know, some days I remember I didn't can go to work, because there were the riots were happening. And I would watch it live on TV, and I recognized what was going on and you had to remote work. Yeah. To work from home those days. Exactly. That's a yoozoom. Yeah.

Qasim Virjee 43:29
And then what, what brought you here to Toronto? COVID. So

Andrew Ingham 43:32
I met my partner in Hong Kong, because she's, she's from Toronto, okay. And then when he was COVID, COVID kicks off. We were, we were at home watching the news. And Justin Trudeau came on and said, Hey, famously, if you're Canadian, and you're overseas, it's time to come home. And I looked around, she was packing a bag is fine. There was literally no cases in Hong Kong like it was. It was virtually nothing at that stage. I said, COVID not even here, hobbies, go back. So she came back. And then you know, I stayed. I actually stayed there for another year in Hong Kong, because I wanted to finish out what had started right. So we we were on Zoom every day. And I came in and visited at one point in the middle of lockdown and all that kind of stuff happened. And then finally said, right, I'm ready to come and I'm not going to do the same thing. I definitely don't want to work

Qasim Virjee 44:27
to join like Loblaws Yeah, right. I

Andrew Ingham 44:31
definitely don't want to do that. I've had enough. So the last sort of six months of of living in Hong Kong was when I decided, okay, what what, what's the problem? And what am I trying to what do I need to fix that I can do without working as a massive retailer?

Qasim Virjee 44:46
And so what was that problem?

Andrew Ingham 44:48
So one of the one of the things that happened to me in the previous years with all these jobs was I was traveling around the world wine bank, so I'll be going to Chile and Argentina and California, Australia, New Zealand. France, Italy, Spain, you know, and it sounds like, Absolutely. You're living the dream, right? You're flying around business class, you've been taken to these wineries. They don't put wineries in awful places to rise quite pretty.

Qasim Virjee 45:13
Funnily enough next to the nude beaches everywhere you go. Not quite that bad. But yeah, thank

Andrew Ingham 45:18
God. Yeah, so I remember I was in New Zealand, and I sent this hotel, and I got an email from a winery that I knew a little bit and they said, Hey, we heard you in New Zealand, because obviously, if we're big supermarkets as well, they also exist. Sure. So we'd really love it if you came to our winery. And I was like, Okay, what what have you got? This is what I'm looking for. And I've always had a very specific goal. If I'm going to New Zealand, such generally I'm looking for a solution to something right. And this is what I'm after. Yeah, we can help with that when you come up. So look at where it is. It's like a five hour drive

Qasim Virjee 45:49
there and back, right, because it's habit village.

Andrew Ingham 45:52
Yeah, to some random in the middle of nowhere, I guess. And I said to him, look at it. There's just no way that I can spend a full day just coming to see you. If you want to come down to where I am. And show me the wines, then, then that's okay, but I definitely can't come to the winery. Oh, no, you must see it. We're in a really, really special place, which is usually what they say. Sure. So next, what if what if we provide a helicopter would you call my helicopter

Qasim Virjee 46:15
fascinates?

Andrew Ingham 46:16
Okay, I'll definitely do that. Yeah, that sounds fun. Yeah, I'm

Qasim Virjee 46:19
having been in a helicopter. It was no one's ever invited me. Yes. It sounds like something you have to invite, you know, because a tourist helicopter is

Andrew Ingham 46:27
the Vegas Grand Canyon for you. I'm sure you could do that. I could do that. Anyway, they provide his helicopter and it's a really stupid story, really. But I was having breakfast in the in this really nice hotel. I was chatting to this couple from Australia. And I said, I actually live in Melbourne, blah, blah. And the waitress comes over says, Oh, Mr. Bingham, your helicopter will be here. Couple was like, What is this guy? Do you pack up my beat? Yeah, exactly. And then you hear it coming to landed on the garden in front of them? And they took my case? Yeah, right. Well, absolutely. Actually, I did not feel in remotely like this was a great experience when it was happening. Yeah, the idea beforehand was, of course, I will have a helicopter. Right? Who's gonna say no to that course. Once the helicopters hovering above the garden, everyone's looking at you anything? Yeah, this makes me feel like an idiot. And I got in the back of this really lovely pimped out helicopter, and the guys in the front, and he's like, okay, it's gonna take us 40 minutes, whatever, sit back, relax, whatever, off we go. This is amazing. This is this is cool. I'm in the middle of a winery, they're all waiting for me. Like, it was ridiculous, is the word. And so that happened. And at the same time, I was I was talking to a winery, and I was saying, they were showing me that, you know, glass production of the bottle, and they were like, we, we shipped the sun from the Middle East to New Zealand, then we blow it into glass bottles. Then we fill it in, and we ship it to the UK. And I'm by millions of bottles of this stuff. Right? And I think this is this is quite a lot to deal with. And then I'm back on the business class flight flying back to the UK, taking up the space of eight people. Right. And I think in

Qasim Virjee 48:14
retired people, yeah. Then cranky people. Yeah, right. Oh, Cameron Baron. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Andrew Ingham 48:19
Well, what do you mean, you've not got a sponsor million. And I just felt like, wow, I'm really causing problems, or what I do is causing problems. You know, I think importing sand all that kind of stuff. It just, it just seems ridiculous. Flying around the world every six weeks business class, ridiculous. You know, so it had been on my mind that maybe, maybe there needed to be a different way. And I started pushing spine saying, What are you doing, as far as sustainability is concerned? What, you know, What projects are you working on? And it's all it's all in the farm. Now. We don't use heavy machinery anymore. Of

Qasim Virjee 48:54
course, we do this water tonight on the distribution chain? Yeah, things like what you doing, the customer can see.

Andrew Ingham 48:59
And it was this some stuff happening, but not really anything significant. And I felt like something needed to be done. And no one was doing it, despite me saying if you do it or buy it, if you do it, I'll definitely buy it. You know, when I buy lots of it, because I've got 1000 stores across Asia, you know, I'll definitely do it. And they're saying, Well, you know, it's a lot of work a bit more research, blah, blah, blah, blah, all that kind of stuff. And at the end, when I was deciding to leave Hong Kong, I thought, well, if no one's going to do it on, I'm going to do it myself. And that became the mission to create wine that is not so formal, because you know, alluded to how much I hated the wine courses. I really feel like wine, the category of wine and the enjoyment of wine is taken hostage by that small subject section of the wine industry. Yeah, like it's great. Don't get me wrong. I love shabbily.

Qasim Virjee 49:49
Well, it seems dichotomic dichotomic you say that is that a word? And is now there you go. Two different worlds of wine. There is is the kind of like let's say taste driven wine. The palate defined palate kind of world of wine. And then there's the like kind of alternative to beer. Yes, here in North America. Definitely. Yeah. Where it's like first time kind of wine drinker girls night out or whatever have you brands that are like swill, still in that same glass bottle, you know, but it's just swill. And like, why should anyone drink Drink swill? Just because they have no taste?

Andrew Ingham 50:27
Yeah, that's, that's definitely the problem is that if you look at the 100% of wine consumers, 70% of people that buy wine in the don't care. It's so true, right?

Qasim Virjee 50:39
That every time I go in our region around here, Niagara or Prince Edward County, yep, around Toronto. Yep. I asked these growers, you know, because I don't want to be insulting, but most of them are terrible. Like they shouldn't be growing wine. They shouldn't I see it as a as an assault on the senses when I drink a lot of this stuff. And a lot of that, of course is blended right? And so there's no like real. The the terroir has no. Verity, is that sounds correct?

Andrew Ingham 51:12
I think it's, I think it's, it could be it can be good here. But it needs to

Qasim Virjee 51:15
be it takes a lot of work. If you're very divisive to keep them warm. You have very cold here. So a lot of people buy the cheapest swell that they can Yeah, then they mix it with the local wine. So that gets the kind of stamp on the bottle. That's right. And then they have different districts when you have to put in Yeah. And so there's that. But then there's also the stuff that's like, you know, authentic, but a poor comparison is something you buy for a cheaper price. Yeah, that's imported from a variable Region, right? Of a veritable heritage country.

Andrew Ingham 51:49
Yeah, you could buy much cheaper from overseas, right? Yeah. And so

Qasim Virjee 51:53
it always fascinates me to see like what the motivations of the grower are. And often cases, I'm told, like, in fact, not often every single time that the mass majority of what we sell is sold from the farm to local buyers. That's right. And it's not tourists. It's not like we're coming to be like, Wow, this is so fun. Tomorrow. Exactly. So that blows my mind. It's just

Andrew Ingham 52:15
like, sort of rural and regional France is the same, you know, those, those, obviously, there's brand price points different though. Price points is definitely different here. But, you know, people go and fill up themselves the like, you know, they've been doing it forever. It's not like, you know, they have to worry about sustainability. They're going filling their own containers, which is sounds like a really great Whole Foods kind of projects, but actually, they've been doing it with wine. And wine. Exactly, exactly. Yeah. So I think I think you're right, there's a lot of work goes into it here. And then because of that, um, because of, you know, just the costs of being in Canada anyway, makes these price points out of what you can buy from overseas better. It's a shame really.

Qasim Virjee 52:58
So your approach to kind of like encouraging sustainability in the industry was,

Andrew Ingham 53:04
so I wanted to sort of try and lead by example, really. So you know, I'm not a winemaker. But I'm going to make wine and that was that that was kind of what I had. I don't own a winery, but I'm gonna make wine. And you know, there's, there's this funny quotes if you if you want a $10 million winery, start with a $20 million winery. Right, you know, it's not really, it's not really a easy to set yourself up in a winery in the same way that let's say, your mate who sets up a microbrewery. Right, you can set up a microbrewery for probably $20,000, right. Everything you everything you need to do it. And if you if you can make good beer, there's the people that will drink it. Same as happened with gin, whose changes around the taxation of of gin, that meant you didn't have to have a massive enormous still you can have a small sort of one that made a small quantity and all of a sudden, people are trying to do it and getting good at it. Right and that those categories boom, because no longer is just the big corporate brands is little independent people just doing it themselves. Right. You

Qasim Virjee 54:02
see that Tesla really severe?

Andrew Ingham 54:03
Did they test a really severe Giga

Qasim Virjee 54:05
brow? Oh, kicker, bro. And it was apparently it's $100 a bottle. Wow. $100 A bottle That sounds expensive, the most expensive beer in the world, right? This is just Instagram feed,

Andrew Ingham 54:18
they just need to focus on that cybertruck And forget about the

Qasim Virjee 54:23
ridiculous comedy. So I like this, okay, you weren't going to actually you know, buy a vineyard and produce your own line.

Andrew Ingham 54:31
So I had this idea that I wanted to solve two problems that I felt was affecting me as a wine buyer. One is I want a wine that is casual. You know that's delicious casual for a for regular people. It just wants to enjoy a really nice wine don't really care about terroir or the day and or shift of the temperature of the of the region or who the winemaker is or even maybe even where it's from right. They just want to go out and enjoy a nice wine or sits at home and watch Netflix and enjoy nice wine. So there's that group of customers, which is the biggest group of customers, okay? And then second to that is, how could I put it in a glass bottle after seeing all this stuff around impulsing of sand and all that kind of stuff. So I thought, I need to find a way to create to fix these two problems in one in one packaging, which is, which is where this has come from. So it's a, it's made by a company in the UK called frugal. They are a packaging company. And they've been working on this for a number of years. And the thing about these kind of these projects and these these packaging projects that are trying to be sustainable is what became really clear to me is there's no silver bullet that fixes everything in one go. It's impossible to say this, all the problems that there are with, you know, the emissions that come from making a bottle one, we solve it in one in one go. It's not possible. But what this does is it it uses so much less carbon than what clusters Yeah, so when a glass bottle is made, in the total wine production 50% of the emissions of that wine bottle is just from making the glass bottle crazy. So it's a huge amount, right. And so what we say is, well, if we don't have to make the glass bottle, we can make out something that's a lot less in intensive on carbon emissions, then we can remove that part of it to start with. And then when it ships it's six times lighter. So that also

Qasim Virjee 56:24
saves money. So what is this? What is this bottle? What's it made out of?

Andrew Ingham 56:28
This made this those made? Answer? This is a paperboard it's called outer. So this is this is everything in it is made out of recycled material. 100% of this is made from recycled products. And then the outer bit is the cardboard is breaks apart if you pull it apart. And inside it is the little pouch that you would have in like a bag in box wine. So so a little pouch now is is made of plastic, glass, recycled plastic. And that's attached to the this is attached to this. Yeah. So when you pull it out,

Qasim Virjee 56:58
it's what's one piece or it's like glued on this one. It's one piece

Andrew Ingham 57:01
pulls out. And so it's made out of plastic. But it's I think it's like 80% less plastic than same size plastic bottle. And it is recyclable if you live somewhere that recycles plastic. Right? Which if you live in Singapore, great if you live in Canada, maybe not as well just send it to the Philippines. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so we were trying to say, well, let's take out the carbon that if someone buys this bottle of wine versus the glass, then that carbon has been removed. Yeah, rather than that. And that's the principle, we are working with the company that that created this idea on the plastics and can we create something that actually we can is a pouch that can biodegrade or whatever, like can we make it fully fully done? If that happens, and we're getting close? That would be 100%. Like it's 100%, recycled and 100 recyclable. So it's a bit of a bit of work to be done. But we're, we're on we're on the path, you know, it started. So I believe it's better than glass. And also, you know, people were saying to me at the very beginning, well, class is one of the most recyclable of all of our products. Well, that's true, but only a third of glass gets recycled. And not what doesn't get recycled takes 4000 years to degrade. So yeah, maybe it is easily recycled if you recycle it. But you're just not you know, people are just not doing that. So that's where the that's where the aim and the vision for it came from.

Qasim Virjee 58:28
I think it's cool. And I think you told me a little of a story. Before we jumped on the mic, you know, days ago, year, months ago, weeks ago, about the actual I almost said scribbles I did. They all kind of scribbles you wrote this on a napkin or some shit, right?

Andrew Ingham 58:46
I wrote it. So when I when I was talking to a few one handwritten i Yeah, so when I was, when I was talking to wineries about it, I drew it on the bottle. So I got them to send me a blank bottle, and I just used a Sharpie and drew it. And I would say, Look, you know, this, this needs to feel like I'm doing it myself. That's my story. You know, I've been the wine buyer that has had frustrations with with sustainability in this category. So I'm going to do it myself. So I wrote this, I want it to look like this. And they said great, let's let's make it look like that. You know, let's do it. Let's get on with it. The journey is and is a winery right? And they said, I'll put you in touch with our design agency, and they'll get them to do it properly. Great. So had the meeting told them was all about so I got this punk attitude. I'm doing it myself, like the Sex Pistols like Vivienne Westwood you know, these guys can play the guitar but made a great album. Yeah, they were a school teacher that didn't wasn't a fashion designer but became one of the best fashion designers. I'm not a winemaker. But I'm gonna make great wine. Right that was that was my inspiration. They came back said Yeah, absolutely no, no problem and then come back with a with a pitch and it was all you know exactly what you'd expect. If you'd have someone say, Make me a punk brand in It was exactly what you'd expect it was tartan and whatever. And and the bills, 50,000 pounds. And punk. Yeah, right. I'm in my 20s. Is this really punk gear spending this money on this kind of stuff? Why can't we just do it ourselves? And I said, No, let's, let's just go with your design. So that that was our slides. And this is what I wrote. So love it. It's exactly as I wrote it. There's all sorts of quotes and icons that have meaning to me. That was personal to me that actually I don't I don't explain unless you go on my website. Yeah, no, I don't explain

Qasim Virjee 1:00:31
it. Okay, so let's talk about the actual contents. Yes.

Andrew Ingham 1:00:34
So the liquid, even despite what I say about customers, and most customers don't care, and that they're the people I would like to drink it. And sustainability. The strategy is in the liquid. Okay. Yes, that's, that has to be that has always been at the very heart of it, that it's very easy to pour bad wine and cool packaging, right. And that happens at every level of wine happens from the entry level to the most premium, you know, it's not uncommon. You wouldn't believe it, but it definitely happens. Support cheaper wine in really expensive packaging to make it look good. And people fall for it. Right. So the strategy is in the liquid. So when we were creating and I went down to South Africa and spent time with the winery and said, Look, I want this to be a really easy to drink wine is a Savion Blanc and Anisha Azar Sarah, and I want the customer to when they drink it, to just think, Yep, great. That is literally it. I don't want it to be challenging or helping them, you know, educate their palate or any of this stuff, you know, I want to think about is a group of lads on a night out and I haven't decided to have red wine, they share a bottle. Great.

Qasim Virjee 1:01:41
How did you find the vineyards to work with

Andrew Ingham 1:01:43
I luckily, I having worked in wine for many years, I knew them. And I knew who I knew who did what I wanted to do, both from attorneys proper, both in terms of taste profile, but also their Vinyard techniques, and also what they do in their local communities. Those kinds of things were important to me, I'd, I could have just gone to industrial winery somewhere and said, Hey, I want to I want to buy a wine off you and thanks very much. So exactly. We can we can definitely talk about that. But I knew these guys. And I respect them both in terms of how they do things. Yeah, I respect the wines they make. And I really admire their community work in the local village in insularis, passing in South Africa. It's amazing Well, part of South Africa. It's just on the edge of Stellenbosch. It's in a place called Sol our is pass north of Cape Town, it's about Yes, about an hour drive out of Cape Town. It's brilliant. I've been a couple of times over the years. And, you know, it's, again, that experience was really firmed up my my desire and belief to do this, because, you know, I remember being in South Africa, and it was they were talking about getting today's era when they were going to run out of water. And it was like, day 20. And on day zero, we're gonna run out of water. And that means that there's no water. Yeah, you know, so little Vinyard had to come up with all ways of getting around, you know, not being able to use water. They never actually got to Daisy around in South Africa, but they were definitely close. And then I was in a restaurant in South Africa and given the menu and in the restaurant, great, all sudden, the lights go off power cut, no electricity, and they come down candles on the table and swap the menu out for a barbecue menu. And so they fire up the barbecue outside. And it's a different menu completely, right. And so, power cuts in South Africa, no water, you know, glass being shipped around the world, fine business class, all these things were coming into me making me think why I really shouldn't do something. And if no one's going to do it, and you know, clearly I'm gonna do it. But I really admire what they do. And then the work with the community. You know, they feed the local community, they employ the local community, they have a kitchen that they run three times a day, the community can just go take a take a container is a big pot of stew like, like, fill it out. It's run by a lady called Joyce actually, who has got an interesting story down in that village. He was going around the the shops at the end of the day, basically trying to get whatever food they not sold, make take it home creators and then go into families, those whose you know, had serious problems with health that was happening in South Africa and trying to feed them and it was happening on the doorstep at this winery where literally, you can walk. And so she the one who said hey, why don't we just provide you with the food? You don't need to go ask him shots, right? We'll just give it to you. Nice. Yeah, anything you need was given to you. So it's called the journey's end foundation. So that kind of stuff is important. And then I met a kid who was really good at running and they couldn't afford running shoes. So they just, they just bought him running shoes, you know, and then they provide the the meals at the school. And so if when the kids go to school, they get a meal join at lunchtime, and at that time when I was there, for some of those kids, that was the only meal they would eat that Day, you know. And so what happened is they realize that some kids don't come to school for whatever reason. So then buying a car employing a lady or like a mini boss, whatever. And she drives around wherever kids not turnips school, she goes to the house in the things, why not school. And it's purely from the point of view of if you come to school, you'll be fed. So all this stuff is paid for by under Vinyard. And it's amazing work that they do. And that was important to me that if I'm going to do something, it has to be with a winery that is mindful of that kind of stuff. Sure, it's very easy in in this day and age, to go and buy an off the peg products, package it and sell it. And, you know, I have some issues around that, that I don't really like, give you one example. So you know, people are trying to get this B Corp status. It's very prevalent in our industry right now and everywhere, I guess. And I don't have anything against B Corp, really. Other than it's not really transparent about what the goal is. But you know, apart from that, what happens is you get the sort of celebrity brands is what is a tequila brand. And, you know, the celebrity has got, you know, 100 million Instagram followers or whatever sure goes and buys a tequila. That is our factory that makes 60 brands of tequila. But

Qasim Virjee 1:06:17
the marketing tells a unique story. Oh, I met Old man, you know, one car exactly.

Andrew Ingham 1:06:22
Buddy in the field, you know, that sort of stuff. Every once a year I

Qasim Virjee 1:06:26
come up here. And I exactly all that

Andrew Ingham 1:06:28
stuff goes sacrament. And then finger the rock. The rock, is that? No, no, it's actually remember, Kendall Jenner, Kendall Jenner. So she has.

Qasim Virjee 1:06:42
This is one of those people? Who are they called the Kardashian example. Okay,

Andrew Ingham 1:06:46
I don't know anything. Tequila companies be called registered, you know, because of all the great sustainable work they do. But she buys it off the peg from a, you know, a factory killer, and then she's flying on Earth on a private jet. And that just sort of belittles, in my opinion, what B Corp stands for. And I'm sure a B Corp has got some really strict measures around what it means to become a B Corp. Business. So I don't want to say anything bad about that. But

Qasim Virjee 1:07:13
there's many good B corpse that have, you know, a lot of great intentions and, and even internal processes to managing the sustainability of their searches. And I get that and I think that's absolutely right. Just it's a standard that you kind of can, if you tick the boxes, there's no, I don't think that there's like, you know, kind of, there's no people in lab coats coming around. And like

Andrew Ingham 1:07:35
it's not transparent. You look on the website, like what was the goal? You just don't know. Right? And also you got people flying around in private jets and then get their tequila brand registered B Corp.

Qasim Virjee 1:07:46
Social. Now there's a lot of bullshit in the sell alcohol world of Yeah, I think it's kind of OEM supplier side of things.

Andrew Ingham 1:07:53
I think it's certainly not authentic. Yeah, that has been my sort of biggest beef with it really. Which is a shame because there's a lot of great companies striving to be B Corp for the right reasons.

Qasim Virjee 1:08:03
There's also a lot of great suppliers that could reach markets better and find, you know, better. Let's call it sustainable sales, through partnerships with celebrities or other distribution channels better. Yeah. And and they're struggling to get great product out there. Yeah. You know, which is a shame. What was a shame?

Andrew Ingham 1:08:22
I think so. I think so. So it's important for me to work with a winery that was credible and authentic and not just, you know, not just gone buy some product somewhere because you know, I'm not a winemaker, right, it's important to know them and have a relationship with them. And for us to trust each other and respect each other. And all that stuff was important. And it to be for the work that they do outside of wine to also be important. And these guys are Journey's End. Definitely. I would say that's them.

Qasim Virjee 1:08:48
So this bottle is here, because I should say this bottle is open not because

Andrew Ingham 1:08:54
I'm not drinking. No, this is a packaging sample. That's right. It was exactly. And

Qasim Virjee 1:08:59
the filled bottles have Did you say just arrived,

Andrew Ingham 1:09:01
they just arrived to the agent here in Canada like yesterday. So they arrived yesterday. So he's bringing them up from Niagara or wherever, wherever he is. To have a taste through or taste him in London when I was there last time. But yeah, so I still haven't had in Canada the finished the finished article, but in the UK

Qasim Virjee 1:09:20
is fine. And this agent will be stocking it in the LCBO Yeah, so

Andrew Ingham 1:09:24
we went and met the LCBO in a couple of months ago now and went over to the office there and presented all all the work we've been doing and why we're doing it and talking about everything. I've heard some horror stories, but actually they were they were great. Yeah, there was absolutely no effort that's good questions. didn't feel like it was office. Definitely not.

Qasim Virjee 1:09:45
That didn't get the techie

Andrew Ingham 1:09:47
I was really hard to coach myself. I really was like, Don't say you're a wimp. I don't say that you're wrong by you know, I didn't want them to think like hey, the book I did you and your job is easy. This is just gonna do that. Yeah, I didn't want to be like that. So I I did tell them as part of my story, I'm doing it for myself. But no, they were really great. And they said they got a, they got a range review happening in the end of summer. And they would absolutely consider it. They congratulated me for what was been achieved. So far, we've talked about all the listings that we've been winning in part a part of around the world, actually.

Qasim Virjee 1:10:19
So the product is available elsewhere. It's just launched

Andrew Ingham 1:10:23
in the UK. So it's literally just launched like in the last week in Britain's biggest public company, not the one that I worked for. But one of them, I think, there's three that say that the biggest, and what I worked for one, and the other two, they've listed it, so the one I worked for hasn't sure if that's testaments or how they feel, but the two that I didn't work for both listed it, which is, which is great news that goes live, I think in the next week, I think in that in their pubs. We listen to it in MMI in the Middle East and Dubai, and they supply all the results in the Seychelles and girl, I'm sort of places and, you know, it's we're having people are asking really good questions about it in terms of the customers because they're saying, some people are solely about the cardboard bottle, you know, they're like, Wow, this is great, because it helps with our sustainability plan, or, you know, we pay for the weight of our waste. Yes. And that whether that by the Seychelles, for example, they import a pallet of wine, the consumers in the fancy resort, drink it, and then they have to send that pallet of wine back to Africa and have to pay for that. Whereas they can recycle this on the island. And so they have to pay for that second shipping. So there's a saving for those guys. Airlines are interested because of the weight and it's purely a calculation for those guys. They say we everything smaller bottles. Yeah, they were they were small bottle, they weigh everything on. Yeah, I think that would be pretty cool. But um, no, no, that. But yeah, they weigh everything that goes on the plane, and everything that goes off. And even if they say one gram times every fly, which, if

Qasim Virjee 1:11:54
it's not personal bottles, there'll be pouring out of this in the first class and business class. Let's hope so. So you are making changes to that?

Andrew Ingham 1:12:00
I would, I would hope so. And then, you know, it's so customers have responded in, I'm gonna say customers, I mean, buyers resellers. Yeah, buyers buyers have responded to all sorts of people love the fact that it doesn't talk any wine, any wine nonsense, we were talking about tasting notes, we, we say the survey monkey is fresh, and this and this arises smooth. We don't You don't need to do anything else. You know, just drink it. And you'll decide. And you know, when it comes to the actual wine, we were talking about, you know, the structure in the wine, we could have easily done with a base level wine, it would have been great. But I had this view that this potentially could be picked up by someone that doesn't really drink wine. And I don't want to put them off in their foot in their first class or their first bottle. If if someone who's a bit younger, some sort of you know, millennial, Gen Zed, wherever, who's old enough to drink buys it. And it's the first time they bought a bottle of wine, it's kind of deliver, because I want them to come back and buy again. And if we've gone too low in the wine, which is traditionally what happens when wines are made for entry level sort of people just starting out, then they're just gonna say I don't really like wine, is because you've not had a good one is the honest answer. So stand

Qasim Virjee 1:13:08
by the quality.

Andrew Ingham 1:13:10
Absolutely. I can't wait to taste this next week.

Qasim Virjee 1:13:13
And so what's the road ahead immediately, for people listening around the world? specific regions where they will be able to find this?

Andrew Ingham 1:13:23
Yeah, so there's, there's a couple of things happening. One is, if you live in the UK, or the Middle East, or hopefully, Canada, if we can convince the LCBO, then you should be able to go to your local pub restaurant or bar or supermarket liquor store and buy on the shelf. And one of the reasons why it's important to me that is a bottle is so it goes on the shelf with other bottles, right, you know, I really want it to be available right next to the glass bottle. It's a choice, right? They're not hidden with all the different formats, you know, and that's what's not, I think they will get in there with that. Yeah, it'll stand out. Yes, exactly. That's right. Yeah. So that's the case. And then the other side of it is, you know, I really would like to make local production, you know, it's not necessarily in Canada. But, you know, we've been speaking to wineries in Chile and Argentina and Australia. And so why don't we do that, but that, so instead of even shipping it from South Africa, why don't we make one in Australia for the Australian market and make it in Chile further South American market, try and make it so it doesn't move around the world too much. And that would be that would be the perfect sort of scenario.

Qasim Virjee 1:14:31
I love it. So it's only the beginning.

Andrew Ingham 1:14:34
I really hope so.

Qasim Virjee 1:14:36
Are you excited?

Andrew Ingham 1:14:36
Yeah, it's been it's been a long sort of time coming really i i got one of those you know, there's white pens that you can write on glass. And I had this view of Hong Kong and I was writing this is this is the problem this is the problem. What's the solution? And I have this huge big like crazy. I'm gonna say peaceful mind but that is definitely not the case. But I wrote it all on on the on the window. Yeah, and am I planning and slowly but surely it's it's definitely a fruition there's lots of ups and downs in starting a new business obviously I worked corporate forever right? And it's this isn't this is totally new to me and I'm trying to not enjoy the highs too much and not be put off by the lows too much. I'm trying to just evenly go through the middle you know, there we talk here about the the maybe you know, there may be probably heard that, you know, that's the the guy that's a Chinese proverb, the guy on the farm and his, his, his horse runs off and the laborer say, oh, you know, you've lost your horse. How terrible. He said, Well, maybe then the next day the horse comes back. What brings a lot of wild horses? Oh, how lucky well, maybe then his son is trying to tame on the horses breaks his leg? Oh, no, how terrible. Maybe. Then the army turn up looking to recruit the next day, but they can't take him because he's got a broken leg? Or how lucky or maybe so I try and navigate this. Maybe probably. I don't enjoy the highs too much. And I don't enjoy the I don't get disappointed by the lows too much I just navigate through.

Qasim Virjee 1:16:01
That's true entrepreneurship because there's always you know, there's no ultimate destination. Right? It is just the way. Yeah,

Andrew Ingham 1:16:08
exactly. I'm used to I'm getting used to people telling me no ask that, sir. You know, quite good at that. Yeah.

Qasim Virjee 1:16:15
It's something that I just you know, he it's funny because like, yeah, it just goes through your brain. Okay. No. Well, you're on to the next thing. All right. That's

Andrew Ingham 1:16:24
right. No, just gets me to a quickie SRLs.

Qasim Virjee 1:16:27
Yeah, exactly. Well, you were never going to be a yes. So yeah, it's not exactly a No,

Andrew Ingham 1:16:33
exactly. It's just maybe. So that's a new, that's a new experience. For me, all that kind of stuff of used to having power, you know, just get stopped.

Qasim Virjee 1:16:43
It's good. The humility of entrepreneurship. Yeah, cool. And it's kind of cool to see that you are doing this from here, because this is perhaps one of the toughest places to be in the alcohol business world, I realized, because for all of our listeners who haven't really kind of clued in who might be outside of Ontario, and outside of Canada, in Ontario, we have this thing called the LCBO, which is the Liquor Control Board of Ontario. And they are the world's number one.

Andrew Ingham 1:17:12
I think in terms of volume buyer that way up there. I think there might be one or two, something like that, but massive.

Qasim Virjee 1:17:17
So they buy for all of us lovely citizens and distributed into the shops that were allowed to purchase this a wonderful.

Andrew Ingham 1:17:25
That's correct. That's what they are. Yeah, it's quite an interesting setup here. And definitely,

Qasim Virjee 1:17:31
it is weird. So like all the buyers, buy through the LCBO. They import stuff, they sell it to the LCBO and then buy it back from the LCBO as warehouses. That's right.

Andrew Ingham 1:17:41
Even if you want to be get listed in a local restaurant, and not even in the LCBO store, it still has to be approved by the license. Yeah, right. It's got to all go through the LCBO. It's like the

Qasim Virjee 1:17:50
LCBO is yeah, it's definitely we're It's very strange. It's very strange. There's not many places in the world where prohibition kind of had lasting effects. And yet, like back in those days, Toronto supplied booze in the state. I know quite a lot of booze was made here. And

Andrew Ingham 1:18:07
when you go into the LCB office, they've got these images off of their old, old stores going back like to the beginning, and they look like old bootleg kind of places. Crazy, man. Yeah, it's good. It's been an interesting journey so far. And hopefully well, it will continue and people will get to get to try it, enjoy the wine and not have to worry too much about the packaging. And I can just chuck it in the recycling and it's nothing. Yeah,

Qasim Virjee 1:18:35
wicked man. Well, it's super exciting that you're doing this. Thank you for sharing your story with us and coming on the podcast. Thanks

Andrew Ingham 1:18:42
so much. Thanks for inviting me. It's great. Thank you. Thanks so much. Yeah, that's cool.

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